SENATOR DEAN SMITH
SHADOW ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR COMPETITION, CHARITIES AND TREASURY
LIBERAL SENATOR FOR WESTERN AUSTRALIA
TRANSCRIPT – INTERVIEW WITH GARY ADSHEAD
TOPICS: Election campaign, NDIS, public service cuts, superannuation, schools curriculum
E&OE
GARY ADSHEAD
You through till six o’clock, of course, here on 720 ABC drive, and we’re going to get into our campaign next with Liberal Senator Dean Smith and the Resources Minister for the Government, Madeleine King. One of them is in Canberra, and that would be Madeleine, if I can find her. Are you there? Madeleine?
MADELEINE KING
I am Gary. I believe we passed over the Nullarbor with Dean.
DEAN SMITH
Like planes in the night, or planes in the afternoon. I was coming back, and you were going.
GARY ADSHEAD
Well, welcome to the studio. What to start with. This is a bit unusual, but I was just talking about NDIS issues leading up to the news, Madeleine, and our phones have lit up. I don’t know whether we’ve hit on something here, but it was a mother just telling us that her son’s plan had changed suddenly, and she’s now having to sort of go backwards to try and get it all back in place. I’ll just take a couple of calls on this, and you guys feel free to jump in on the conversation. Hi, Melinda, you there?
CALLER:
Yes, I am.
GARY ADSHEAD
Okay, you are a former local coordinator for NDIS. Is that right?
CALLER:
WA NDIS, before Mark McGowan. We worked very hard to keep the WA NDIS, but then it went, switched over to the federal model, which is very different in operation, to how we used to do it in WA, which was a lot cheaper, more person centred, very individualised to the person and the family. And we’d have unfunded strategies, not just funded strategies. I remember one plan I had for a schizophrenic client, and he didn’t have any funding. He didn’t need it. He was doing great. So, he was an example of an unfunded plan that we had, but he had all these community social supports in there, you know. I just think if we could ever go back to the WA model, that would just be great. I don’t know if that would be very difficult to achieve…
GARY ADSHEAD
Thanks for the call, Melinda. I mean, Dean, hearing what I was talking about before the news. Do you get many constituents come to you at all?
DEAN SMITH
Well, I was listening outside the studio to the segment, and it reminded me, I have got one or two matters before me at the moment where I’m advocating for people who have, like the story that you aired, people without any warning, without any preparation, they find that their NDIS program is significantly reduced. There’s not an explanation for it. During the end of COVID I had a very heart wrenching experience. A mother came to see me. She had a severely disabled young son with all sorts of challenges. Happy to report that we were successful in putting fresh information before the NDIS, making the case strongly, and she was able to have that funding restored. So, what I would say to people is: collate the information. If you don’t feel like you are getting a fair hearing from the NDIS, then go and see your local Parliamentarian, because that is one of the reasons why Madeleine and myself are there to advocate on behalf of people. I’ve got one very important matter at the moment, which listening to your program reminded me that, you know, I must stay on top of it, because I do think what Melinda just said about where we’ve got to as opposed to where we’ve come from, I think it’s very, very true to say that the West Australian disability service model that existed before the NDIS was very, very good. It was very grassroots. People felt very, very connected to the system. And I remember very clearly Colin Barnett, who was the premier at the time, arguing strongly that we should have a federated NDIS model rather than a national model. And in making that point, Colin Barnett was really wanting to preserve all that was good about the West Australia model, as well as take up some of the benefits that might have accrued from the national body. But all I say to people, and it is tragic because it comes to people often. These sorts of things come to people without any warning, at a time when people are under a lot of personal and financial pressure. What I say to your listeners is, reach out to someone. Reach out to a service provider. Reach out to your local Parliamentarian. Gather all the necessary evidence, the doctor’s evidence, the specialist evidence, and make the case. There are examples where people have had their funding packages restored.
GARY ADSHEAD
All right. Madeleine, I don’t know whether constituents have come to you of late or not, and sort of asked for help on this one.
MADELEINE KING
Hi Gary and Hi Dean. I just say, I mean, I’d back in actually, what Dean said is that the electorate offices are there to help in regard to many inquiries, but particularly NDIS and yes, I’ve had people come to my office, and my staff have helped them get through some of these challenges in the system. I would say it is a very complex System, the NDIS, but it is, it’s really essential, and I think it’s a very good thing that it’s a bipartisan policy now in this country where people with disability can get that support. It does need to be sustainable, and that’s challenging. I’m sorry, I didn’t hear the story before I got to this.
GARY ADSHEAD
It was a lady saying that she’s got a son, he’s 18. He’s been on a plan for about four or five years. It was all going swimmingly. Then they get a notification that his plans being dragged down by about 120 $130,000 down to 26,000 total. She couldn’t understand why she’s now going through the process of having to get reassessed, but she but she’s already been told that it probably shouldn’t have been brought down, but she still has to go through the paper. It’s an administrative issue right now.
MADELEINE KING
It’s definitely the right thing to do, to speak with her local member of Parliament or someone from their the office, because they all have the lines into the bureaucracy that can assist and can help navigate and that, as Dean said, that’s exactly what our offices are there to do, and they can do that with other support services as well…
GARY ADSHEAD
All right, Sarah’s there as well. I’ll just keep going with it, because I think it’s important for people who are listening that want to have their say, Hello, Sarah, what’s your situation?
CALLER
Yes, hi. My story sort of resonates with Leanne, who spoke first. I too have a daughter on the NDIS and our we were applying for extra positive behaviour support hours in her plan. We waited nine months, and what actually happened was: we did get a slight increase in the plan, but they took away all the funding that she was currently using. She had 50 hours of specialized driving given to her, and she had 17 hours left, and was doing weekly lessons to gain her number one goal as driving, and they took it away. So that’s it – gone. And yet her number one goal was to achieve her driver’s license, which is for her, she wants to become a support worker, but she can’t do that unless she has a driving license. These specialist driving schools absolutely teach these children that need extra support how to drive safely on a road which is beyond what most parents can do. So that was taken away her. Her SLES funding, which was given to support her finding employment, taken away too. Because what we’re trying to do as families is to make our children as independent as possible when leaving high school, and the transition from really structured environment into adult world is where we need it most.
GARY ADSHEAD
Where abouts do you live?
CALLER
I live in Booragoon
GARY ADSHEAD
Okay, I mean, you could go and speak to your local federal member about it.
CALLER
I will do because, I mean, I’ve been for an internal review, and the NDIA said that driving lessons is associated with something like buying groceries. It’s a normal part of life, but it’s not for people with disability. I couldn’t actually believe that they have compared it with buying groceries.
GARY ADSHEAD
Well, it’s not, not the perfect time, because we’ve got an election coming up, but certainly, Tangney, is your electorate. So, Sam Lim is your local member at this stage. But I mean, if you can perhaps wait till after May 3, because who knows what’s going to happen, what would you say? Madeleine?
MADELEINE KING
No one should wait. If you haven’t, go and speak to someone. Give them a call tomorrow. You don’t have to go to the office, just give them a call. Yeah, the electorate officers still work during this caretaker period. They’re there to answer people’s inquiries, and they will. And, I mean, senators are also there as well if you want to contact…
DEAN SMITH
It’s a terrible myth around politics that Senators don’t do constituent work. Let me tell you that this Senator here absolutely does his fair share of constituent work. So not knowing the detail of the cases that we’ve heard over your program over the last hour or so, I’d make this point. It is very important that people collate the evidence to substantiate the point that they’re making. Once a decision maker can see the evidence. It might be a specialist report, it might be receipts for various sort of activities, then they are then armed to make the best and fairest decision. Often, the bureaucrat’s job is, and I don’t like to use that word, but the decision maker’s job is not to chase down the information. The decision maker’s job is to look at the information that is provided in front of them and to make a decision based on that. So, I just encourage people to collect the information, collect the reports, make sure that they’re all compiled, because that’ll make the Parliamentarian or their staff’s task easier for you. And in my experience, when the information is available and presented in a particular way, in the right way, then there are positive outcomes.
GARY ADSHEAD
All right. Well, Sarah, there you go. That’s the first port of call. Then perhaps saying Sam Lim’s office for the seat of Tangney, of course, federally. Have a go at that, if nothing else, that works for you. Appreciate your calling, though.
CALLER
Good on you. Thank you so much. I’ll be on the phone tomorrow. Thank you.
GARY ADSHEAD
Sarah, there. Marks next. Hello, Mark.
CALLER
Gary, just a personal experience of NDIS. I’m an NDIS participant. I have been for a number of years, and use a mobility device, but needed a replacement. I went through all the assessments with my provider, applied for putting a funding application for a new mobility device. That took NDIS 12 months to make that decision on whether I would be eligible for funding for a new mobility device. I can’t do without that mobility device. I went through all that process, and it’s been granted. The new wheelchair has been ordered. It’s coming imminently. In the main column, my NDIS plan is up for, due for review, just being contacted by the NDIS to do it, what they call a checking plan review, and then they wanted to do it within a week. I just think that the irony there and the hypocrisy, apart from the inefficiency of the NDIS take 12 months to make a decision, is just…
GARY ADSHEAD
And you’re annoyed that they prepared to do the review within a week, but it’s taken a while for that mobility device.
DEAN SMITH
And I’m assuming that you have always had a mobility device. You’re just looking to upgrade the mobility device. Have I understood that? So, there we go. The evidence is before them. It’s not as if you are trying to make the case to get a mobility device, you’ve been using one, you want to replace it. Obviously, that’s part of the plan. Totally entitled to do that. So, then, I just cannot, cannot explain or justify why a decision, when you already have one you’re looking to upgrade, should take 12 months. There’s no explanation for that.
GARY ADSHEAD
Keep us informed, Mark, on that one, because hopefully the review of your situation won’t change, the fact that there is a mobility device on its way, so keep us informed and appreciate your calling through. All right, there you go. There’s a bit of a slice of that. Okay, we are in an election campaign, though. Dean Smith, how’s it tracking for you the election campaign so far? What are the hot button issues that you’re picking up? First of all, and some of the things that have gone out there from the Coalition in terms of the issues that the community should be worried about?
DEAN SMITH
Well, two important things have happened in just the last week. Madeleine – it feels like a lifetime already the election campaign, I hope that Madeleine is nodding in agreement. But I’d say this, in the last week, we’ve had two things that are very important. We’ve had a federal budget that made it very clear that the country is on track to $1.2 trillion of debt over the next four years, a federal budget from Labor that says that taxes will peak at $532 billion over the next four years. And we know in the Budget papers, that revealed by them, there is $425 billion worth of spending. Following that, on the Thursday night, we then had Peter Dutton’s Budget-in-reply speech to create an alternative vision for this country. So, I think what people are starting to see is a very clear choice between a re-elected Labor government and a, I would hope, Peter Dutton led Coalition government. I do think that when people put their minds to these issues, it’ll be about the economy and about cost of living. No doubt about that, when West Australians put their mind to these issues, it is absolutely about issues like the Northwest shelf. It is about the Labor’s ban on the live sheep export. It is about this toing and froing, about nature positive laws. And let’s remind everyone that the nature positive laws are bad news for the price of housing in Western Australia. They’re bad news for resource development and extraction in Western Australia, and we’ve got a Prime Minister who says they’re on the table, off the table, on the table, off the table. West Australians are much smarter than that. Western Australians are much smarter, the choice is getting clearer for people.
GARY ADSHEAD
Madeleine, is the choice clear? And also, the other thing, Madeleine, is which ones winning the argument: the tax cut that comes next year, or the fuel excise cut that would come fairly quickly when there is an election.
MADELEINE KING
There’s one coming, Gary. Well, what we know from the last week of Parliament is that Peter Dutton intends to cut everything except taxes. The Liberal party is now the party of higher taxes in this country. And Gary, the Government is working to show that there is a clear choice at this election between Labor that will build Australia’s future and strengthen Medicare, and contrast that with Peter Dutton, who is going for your taxes going, for the support services. I mean, we just had a conversation with people struggling with the NDIS system, because it is a complicated system that does need a lot of experienced public servants to help deliver people’s supports, and this is what they’re wanting to cut, or actually, we don’t know what they want to cut, but you can make sure front line services…
DEAN SMITH
No frontline services are definitely not being cut. Do you know that, Madeleine?
MADELEINE KING
Okay, what are you cutting, Dean? I mean, you’re cutting Medicare. It certainly looks like it. You’re certainly not cutting taxes, but you seem to be wanting to.
DEAN SMITH
Madeleine, are you defending every one of those 41,000 new public servants that have been employed by Labor since they were elected. Are you defending every one of those 41,000 public service jobs that have been created by Labor since it was elected in May 2022?
MADELEINE KING
I’m really glad you’ve brought this up yet again on this show, how the Coalition Government managed to put tens of billions of dollars in to the consultancy services of this country to build those magnificent palaces of Barangaroo and gutted the public service. They gutted the Department of Veterans Affairs. They gutted the Department of Agriculture. We know what the Coalition did, and actions speak louder than words. That’s their record. So, I do support the public service, and I do support the work.
DEAN SMITH
That’s not what we’re debating. The election is not about the Australian Public Service. The election is absolutely about the 41,000 additional public servants that have been employed since Labor was elected. That’s the that’s the first point. Has service delivery improved for people as a result of those 41,000 extra jobs? And I take a different spin on what we’ve just heard from the callers. I’m saying that I think the callers are saying to us that that service delivery hasn’t improved.
MADELEINE KING
Let me just – Gary, I think you’re losing control of this show, and I don’t appreciate what Dean always does to me every single week. One new public service is the National Emergency Management System. These people are right now helping the people of Queensland get through a flooding disaster, just like they did the cyclone early this year, just like they did at the Fitzroy River crossing with the floods a couple of years ago. So yeah, they are some of those 41,000 public servants, and I think they need to be there doing their job, not subject to Peter Dutton’s cuts.
GARY ADSHEAD
Here’s Philip on the line. He’s got a question about public sector cuts. Hello, Philip.
CALLER
Good afternoon to the three of you, and thank you for making your time available to the general public. Now, Dean, this question is directed to you. Dutton has made a statement. He’s going to cut 41,000. If you cut, are you going to reinstate them, like you did with consultants last year? And you know, you all push the barrier. You’re looking after veterans the way you treated those individuals. They couldn’t get their pensions. Of course, the people are getting the service now, and the performance factor is on the board with those public servants. Can you give me another assurance that you are not going to reinstate any positions, or you’re just going to give the money back into the fat cats again, in consultancy fees.
DEAN SMITH
Thank you very much for the question. And what we are talking about here is: is the Australian taxpayer getting the most efficient and effective Australian public service?
GARY ADSHEAD
How do you know they’re not ,sorry, how do you know they’re not?
DEAN SMITH
Well, I think 41,000 in three years is a huge number. Is an absolutely huge number. And the point here is that Madeleine and others throw out the 41,000 as if to say that every one of those 41,000 jobs should be defended. That’s just not true because we know, and Labor knew this when it got elected to Government. The coalition certainly knows this when it has been elected to Government, that over time, there is waste and unnecessary expenditure in the Australian public service. And if people are looking for some examples of that waste, all they need to do Gary is go to this website “underlabor.com”. You can go and see some of the examples of that waste right now.
MADELEINE KING
I mean, what about the waste of going and, you know, having Kirribilli as a principal house for the Prime Minister, a nice harbor side mansion.
GARY ADSHEAD
I was going to come to this. That’s a distraction, isn’t it? Dean, I mean, honestly, he should have just said, when he’s asked that question. Well, that’s something for down the track. Let’s not talk about where I’m going to be living. I’ve got to get to an election, yet he nominates, he nominates Sydney to live, as opposed to the nation’s capital. Let’s, let’s see what Caroline would like to say. Hi Caroline.
CALLER
Good afternoon, everybody. Thanks for having me on. My background is, I’m a financial advisor. Very recently, the Grattan Institute came out with a report saying that people are accumulating too much money in superannuation, in retirement. And so, my question to Government is, why has neither Labor nor Liberals said, Well, okay, with that in mind, instead of having people receiving 12% of their salary as super contribution, why not reduce it immediately back down to 10% from the first of July? That will immediately alleviate the concern the Grattan Institute has. It won’t cost the Government anything. It’s revenue neutral. It will immediately address the cost-of-living issues that people have. It’ll put that extra 2% back in their pocket. And if people want to continue contributing to super, they can do so because they can choose to, you know, increase it. But also, more importantly, it actually makes it easier for people to track their super contributions, because everybody knows their 10s times table, the math is easy, and therefore we’re less likely to have employees making errors, either deliberately or not deliberately. And I think that would be an easy win for the Government, and I’m surprised that neither Labor nor Liberal have actually looked at considering it.
GARY ADSHEAD
What do you think of that idea first, Madeleine?
MADELEINE KING
Well, thanks for the call, Caroline, and respects to your profession as a financial advisor. I’ve not seen the Gratton Institute report, but I would say having more people saved for retirement into the long term has been a very positive thing for the country and for the community at large. We know what super enables when you do access it on retirement, it means a comfortable retirement. But not everyone gets the chance. So, I understand your point about putting less in. I don’t support that, and the government doesn’t support that. But equally, through people’s lifetimes and careers, lots of people have breaks in those careers, so for some time they are maybe not contributing. And so, it is important to keep the contributions up for when retirement is on the horizon, and it takes a lot of pressure off families around a retiree to know that they do have that really important nest egg to be comfortable and, quite frankly, spend their retirement income having a bit of fun.
GARY ADSHEAD
What did you think, Dean? I mean, don’t mind the concept of what she’s saying, because it’s at a time when more income would be beneficial. And perhaps, if it’s the employer paying that rather than paying it into the super, I don’t know.
DEAN SMITH
I think Carolyn makes a couple of points that are in her question, but let me just sort of start at the high level. First, we do want to encourage people as early as possible to save for their retirement, because the ambition is that they will be less likely to be an imposition on the pension system, which is paid for by taxpayers. That’s the first point. The second point is, and I do get this a lot, both in Canberra and in Perth, people say, “Well, why should I pay a superannuation contribution at the level that I do”, and I think that is 12 or 12 and a half percent, because I wouldn’t mind keeping some of that in order to pay for cost of living pressures, in order for pay for my children’s school fees. So, I think that there is a debate about what is the appropriate level. But let me be very clear, Peter Dutton has no plans to change the superannuation scheme as it operates in Australia at the moment. He does have an improvement. He does have an improvement, and that is that we would like to give people access to their superannuation when they’re buying a first home. So, we do think that there may be an opportunity to better utilize some of those superannuation savings, particularly for first home buyers. But the principle, I think, is an important one. We want people to be able to save for their retirement, because ultimately it becomes less of an imposition on those people that are working and paying their way.
GARY ADSHEAD
Can I just ask you, just generally, about the campaign. One thing that seems to be coming up to me, and I’ll get both your opinions on this, is that Peter Dutton does seem to be sort of reaching for certain things that you wonder why he’s bothering, like it should all be about cost of living right now. What is the woke indoctrination that’s going on with the Primary and high schools? I know it started to pivot to universities, but on the day that he made those comments, it was about federal funding for state schools and the need to keep the curriculum in line with what he says is appropriate, as opposed to indoctrination. What is it?
DEAN SMITH
Okay, so context is very, very important here. So, there are going to be lots of headlines about what is said during the election campaign. Some headlines will be accurate, some won’t be accurate. And context is very important. What you just shared Gary is absolutely important. The context of what Peter Dutton was saying is that this Government has funded states to provide education. Those negotiations are now underway, and those negotiations are still underway in lots of states. Peter is saying, while those negotiations are unresolved, this is an opportunity to make sure that issues like the national curriculum and other sorts of things do properly reflect the values that Australian families expect to see.
GARY ADSHEAD
The current one was set by the Coalition when it was in Government.
DEAN SMITH
Correct, which demonstrates the point that Governments do have levers to influence the national curriculum. Much of the curriculum, though, is controlled by some states who choose to do that. What Peter Dutton is saying is that he would like to ensure that the values that Australian families have in their homes, have in their communities and neighbourhood, are properly reflected in the national curriculum and properly reflected through national funding arrangements of public schools.
GARY ADSHEAD
I want an example of where they are not. I asked Andrew Hastie yesterday; I couldn’t get one. I wanted an example of what is going on in a school environment. I’m not talking University. Universities have always been hotbed of radicalism and people that want to stand up and shout and holler and protest, but I mean primary school and secondary school. What is the indoctrination happening there.
DEAN SMITH
I’m going to mention Colin Barnett’s name again, because there was an important education innovation or policy that was established and implemented under him, and it’s called the independent public schools. So that means that parents and school communities have much greater control and influence over what happens in in their local school. I believe what happens is that contentious issues don’t surface in the same way in Western Australia as they do in other states and territories. Because of an independent public school, the parents have much more influence and control. So, what’s happening is, whatever the school culture, whatever the values around that school actually are, they are being endorsed and supported by those school communities and by parents in particular.
GARY ADSHEAD
And that’s fine, isn’t it? Madeleine? What do you think Peter Dutton’s suggesting?
MADELEINE KING
I mean, I’m going to ask Dean every time, because it looks like he’s Peter Dutton’s translator now, and I don’t know if in his next press conference Senator Smith’s going to be by his side saying “what Peter Dutton means when he says, I’m going to cut school funding”…
DEAN SMITH
Let me guess what you’re about to say, Madeleine, you’re going to say it Donald Trump…
GARY ADSHEAD
I think you need to let Madeleine say it…
MADELEINE KING
That’s the thing I don’t get to say anything, maybe turn his mic off.
GARY ADSHEAD
Should I turn his mic off? No of course not…
MADELEINE KING
I’m joking, I would say, though, that this is just a terrible distraction from you know, planned cuts to public schools, and those funding arrangements we have agreed with the states. And I take my hat off to Roger Cook, and this was in the last term before his recent thumping electoral victory, where he was the first State Premier to agree with the Federal Labor Government for the funding agreement for public schools, and as a result, Western Australia is going to be at the forefront of the funding arrangements and get the bulk of the funding before others do. That’s a really good thing, and we should, you know, I’m, for one, very grateful for the premier grabbing on to that.
GARY ADSHEAD
I think Madeleine is right, it’s a distraction, but I don’t think it’s a distraction you need in terms of a campaign. Dean Smith, I don’t think you need distraction…
MADELEINE KING
Yeah, and we were talking about people coming into our offices and the things they might want help with. Tell you what I haven’t had one single call or one someone talk to me at a market about what happens at school, whether it be in the curriculum or otherwise. It’s more about, you know, cars going too fast in in school zones.
DEAN SMITH
The fundamental point here is that the Federal Government provides a tremendous number of taxpayers’ dollars to support education across the country, and that is a powerful lever to make sure that the right sorts of values are being taught.
GARY ADSHEAD
That’s my next question. What are they? I don’t know what they’re supposed to be…
MADELEINE KING
Why do you make this a political football every election, because the previous Coalition Government put this curriculum in place…
DEAN SMITH
Correct Madeleine, and what did we put in place? The previous Coalition Government amended the curriculum, put in place critical thinking. This was the value that the previous Coalition government put into the amended curriculum. The other value was responsible citizenship. The other value was common sense.
MADELINE KING
So why is Peter Dutton complaining about that now, and want to cut school funding and tell everyone about the levers he can use to adjust school funding, I mean, this is nuts and it says everything you need to know about the Coalition campaign. They are not focused at all on cost of living, they’re not…
DEAN SMITH
A 25-cent reduction in the fuel excise, every time a family goes to the petrol station. That is cost of living relief, that is real cost of living relief…
MADELINE KING
They’re not focused on strengthening Medicare, they’re not focused on building Australia’s future, instead they’re focused on measuring up the curtains in Kirribilli, and cutting school’s funding.
GARY ADSHEAD
Alright, well, I thought I would raise it because I it was a bit sort of, I found it quite interesting to throw that one out there into the community to see what came back yesterday. When we did it on air, by the way, most people came back and said they were pretty happy with the way things were and they couldn’t understand some of the concerns that were being raised suddenly around funding. Anyway, well it is coming up 24 minutes to 6, I do appreciate you coming in. Dean, I think you’ve got an engagement. Madeline, you are probably tired because you have been flying across the country and goodness knows what else, and I do appreciate you coming in and making yourself available.
MADELINE KING
Thanks Gary.
DEAN SMITH
Always a pleasure.
GARY ADSHEAD
Madeline King there in Canberra and Dean Smith here in Perth.
ENDS