SENATOR DEAN SMITH
SHADOW ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR COMPETITION, CHARITIES AND TREASURY
LIBERAL SENATOR FOR WESTERN AUSTRALIA
TRANSCRIPT – INTERVIEW WITH GARY ADSHEAD
TOPICS: Work from home and public service policies, Gas policy, Port of Darwin, BYD manufacturing standards in Indonesia.
E&OE
GARY ADSHEAD
Alright, boom. Alright, and the conversation now turns to Federal politics, because with me in the studio I’ve got Madeleine King, the Federal Resources Minister. How are you, Madeleine?
MADELEINE KING
Yeah, very good, thanks, Gary. Good to see you again.
GARY ADSHEAD
And you. And Dean Smith, of course, the Federal Liberal Senator. I call him the firebrand Liberal. I don’t know how he feels about that.
DEAN SMITH
Thanks very much Gary. I hope I live up to expectations.
GARY ADSHEAD
Pressure’s on, great to have you both in the studio. And what are we, two weeks in now? Are we two weeks in? I’ve just lost track.
MADELEINE KING
I check my calendar each morning, but then I forget as soon as I walk out the door.
GARY ADSHEAD
I think we’re two weeks into the campaign and it’s almost Easter. And this is a time where people just work about three more days, and then they get this massive holiday if they want between Easter and Anzac Day. Hard to keep people focused, do you think, guys?
DEAN SMITH
Madeleine and I were talking about this outside just before we came into the studio.
MADELEINE KING
It sort of reduces the whole campaign time. Because you go into almost a voluntary quiet time. But then the other thing about holidays is, you know, maybe people are sitting around a bit more, being able to read.
DEAN SMITH
Or waiting for Madeleine to knock on their door.
MADELEINE KING
That’s it, or a phone call…
DEAN SMITH
Or their local Senator to knock on their door or wave a sign on the side of the street, like I was this morning on the corner of Marmion Avenue and Reid Highway, with Vince Connelly our Candidate for Moore.
GARY ADSHEAD
What does it say by the way?
MADELEINE KING
Are they beeping at you, Dean?
DEAN SMITH
They were beeping and cheering. But in the interest of full transparency, there were one or two, sort of, middle fingers.
GARY ADSHEAD
That’s Madeleine’s people. She sends them.
MADELEINE KING
Yeah, yeah. All the way from Rockingham.
DEAN SMITH
That’s right. But it’s interesting, I mean, the whole point of the campaign, over the 33 days, is to build momentum and then to have that momentum peak when the pre-poll starts. And then on election day itself. So, Easter does interrupt the building of the campaign. Absolutely.
GARY ADSHEAD
And pre-poll is right in the middle of it, isn’t it? 22nd?
DEAN SMITH
Yeah, Tuesday the 22nd. 8AM.
GARY ADSHEAD
Okay. That’ll be interesting. In your local community, how many people rush out to do it for the Federal Election? We saw a start in the State Election, which was big, and then it sort of tapered off. And that might be all part of the problems that the Electoral Commission statewide have. But anyway…
MADELEINE KING
Yeah, I’m sure the AEC would be much better organised.
DEAN SMITH
I’ve got a hundred percent faith in the AEC.
MADELEINE KING
So do I. I’ve got four pre-poll booths.
DEAN SMITH
I did notice that.
MADELEINE KING
I’m surprised that, yeah, I…
DEAN SMITH
The pre-poll list came out earlier in the week and I looked at the pre-poll for Perth’s northern suburbs. And I thought, really? Wow, there are lots of pre-poll options. So, there’s no excuse for not getting to the polling booth before your holiday.
MADELEINE KING
Yeah. And the other thing is people I’ve spoken to that are going away, they’ve just pre-booked holidays and are trying to organise getting a postal vote if the pre-polls aren’t open. So that can be difficult to organise. But also, people visiting from…
DEAN SMITH
I’m happy to organise anyone getting a Liberal Party how to vote. So just call my office.
GARY ADSHEAD
It’s good to know that you’re both there to help and serve.
DEAN SMITH
Don’t go to Madeleine, come to my office.
GARY ADSHEAD
Hey, let’s just start with a couple of the policies and issues that are around then. Clearly, Dean, you are bleeding in relation to the public servants policy, whether it be work from home or the 41,000 figure that was put on everyone’s head in the public sector. I mean, for Peter Dutton, just to sort of cut it off at the knees is interesting.
DEAN SMITH
Well, it was said to me, and I do agree, that Peter Dutton deserves ten out of ten for humility. He did listen and responded very quickly. He admitted that it was a mistake, reaffirmed that, and gave people a high degree of satisfaction that it will not be happening.
GARY ADSHEAD
Did he listen to internal polling, or did he listen to the headlines in the paper?
DEAN SMITH
I’m sure he listened to his very capable Liberal Party candidates out in the field. I’m sure he listened to those people around him. Made it very clear that he understands better now than perhaps previously the importance of flexibility in the workplace. Flexibility in working from home. These are part of the modern family arrangements for so many people. I think also ten out of ten for Anthony Albanese in running a very effective scare campaign trying to say to people that this was Peter Dutton’s desire across the whole economy. Not true at all, but it’s no longer the policy. Peter’s been very clear about that. And then we’re moving on to other issues.
GARY ADSHEAD
I mean, it’s a heck of a backflip. Because I watched Jane Hume’s presentation to the Menzies Foundation. I think, Madeleine, I think it was the Menzies Foundation. She was really quite glib and sort of chortling with jokes about these people that say that they’re more productive when they work from home. So, it’s a real come down, isn’t it? We’re you surprised that they decided to cauterise it?
MADELEINE KING
I’m glad they cauterised it, but, I don’t really believe that this is where this ends post-election. What we’ve seen is, well more backflips than a Cirque du Soleil show here, Dean. It goes on and on and on.
DEAN SMITH
That line was so good, it must have been given to you.
MADELEINE KING
I can work it up myself. But there’s work from home. There is this consistent attack on the public service when, they’re smart people, hardworking people trying to work hard for the community. I was at Wellard train station this morning at 6:30am doing what we do, and the PTA gave us permits to go and campaign at train stations. And, you know, a number of people are, are popping on the train early to go work at Government Departments up here. And then they, I might add, they never take your little leaflets because they, they’re good public servants and it’s caretaker period. And they are…
GARY ADSHEAD
Impartial.
MADELEINE KING
They just get on. But you see their, their badges or they’re lanyards and you know, they work for the Australian Government and that’s important to communities like mine and in Kwinana. There are people that work in federal departments, and I don’t want them to lose their job. And if they do want to work home, and we know a lot of people choose which days they do work from home. They should be allowed to, and that will continue. And that’s a very good thing. But there’s more than that backflip, of course. I mean, you must be feeling pretty unwell, Dean, and Michaelia Cash must be beside herself, because you’ve backflipped on the same job, same pay…
GARY ADSHEAD
Same job, same pay was interesting.
MADELEINE KING
For the multi-employer bargaining.
GARY ADSHEAD
He drew a line under that one as well. When asked at a press conference, I think he was in, was he in the Pilbara when he was asked?
DEAN SMITH
Western Australia, in the seat of Hasluck. I remember.
GARY ADSHEAD
Yeah, because…
MADELEINE KING
So, real surprise then.
GARY ADSHEAD
Yeah. So go on. What about that? I’ll ask you, is it because people had said to you, Dean Smith, that this public sector cuts and public sector work from home changes are just not palatable. Had people told you that and the same with same job, same pay, because…
MADELEINE KING
I mean, talk about a scare campaign.
DEAN SMITH
Well, we’ll come to scare campaigns in a moment. You are ratcheting up pretty impressively, but I’ll just make a couple of points. So yes, things were shared with me by constituents and when I was out in the field too. I’ve recognised that in order to have greater female participation in the workforce, which is absolutely critical to maintain productivity levels and our prosperity, there has to be flexible work arrangements to allow women, but also fathers, greater flexibility. So, working from home has allowed people to do that. I think that this is now a modern feature of the workplace. The workplace is not your traditional seven or eight story high building anymore. It is spread out across our suburbs and communities. So, working from home is absolutely necessary if we’re going to maintain high levels of female participation and improve our productivity. On the issue of public service cuts, I think it is important to remind people that the Coalition does believe that things can be done more efficiently in the Australian Public Service. Now, what we would point to as a starting point, is that the growth of the Australian Public Service under Anthony Albanese in just three years is greater than the growth that happened under Rudd and Gillard over seven years. So, what we are saying is that Australian taxpayers deserve an efficient, effective Australian Public Service. I’ve seen the best of Australian public servants when I sit across the Senate Estimates table with them, the Secretaries of Departments, Deputy Secretaries. So, I’m someone who believes that a strong, effective, efficient public service is in Australia’s interest. Yeah, but I’ve got to say those raw figures just don’t…
GARY ADSHEAD
But you start talking about slashing and burning, et cetera, and then you run into trouble. I mean, I was surprised to be honest. I was surprised that Peter Dutton on a number of issues has put such a big target on himself. The public sector being one of them. Remember Campbell Newman rode in on a landslide win, started slashing and burning the public sector and they just paid him back in kind at the box. All the families of those public servants and stuff just went, well, “up yours”, and he was gone. What bit of that did you miss? I mean, I would’ve thought as a party you’d go, oh geez, do we really need to go after the public sector in this campaign? Shouldn’t we just talk about cost of living, power prices, the usual sort of bread and butter and, and play it safer given you’ve had to backflip?
MADELEINE KING
You should get Gary on your campaign team, Dean.
DEAN SMITH
The answer to that is yes. And, more than that Peter Dutton has recognised that.
GARY ADSHEAD
Alright.
DEAN SMITH
He’s absolutely recognised that because what he’s also saying is, he does not want things to distract from a 25-cent cut in the fuel excise.
GARY ADSHEAD
Well there you go. There’s your point.
DEAN SMITH
That’s right.
GARY ADSHEAD
They’re the main point…
DEAN SMITH
This allows Peter Dutton and his team to come out the following day and talk about those other issues that are really important to people, which include cost of living measures announced today, the next stage in our gas policy…
GARY ADSHEAD
Exactly.
DEAN SMITH
Very important.
GARY ADSHEAD
Now I believe, I believe that Peter Dutton’s on a winner here and Madeleine’s going to absolutely tear me to shreds, I’m sure. But I believe he’s going to win it because I don’t think if I walk outside the street and I said, hey, you know what, we’re all going to run short of gas. Yeah, I know we’ve got lots of it, but we have to send over 70% of it overseas. Are you alright with that? Because your power prices are going to go up. I don’t reckon anyone, and particularly in Victoria where they might be facing this situation and New South Wales, is going to really have a problem with Peter Dutton telling the gas sector, hey, pull your finger out and keep more gas in this country. What’s wrong with that Madeleine? Well go on, Madeleine. She is the Resources Minister.
MADELEINE KING
Thanks. Well, it’s a bit of an epiphany from Peter Dutton. We saw when last in government some ad hoc measures, which were, I mean, for one, in this country we have the Australian domestic gas security mechanism, which is in place to make sure there is enough supply. And under the Coalition Government before that was only able to used once a year. So, not really effective. You trigger that in January. Maybe if you might have had a tough summer. Well, summer’s almost over. So it was, we’ve reformed that and, and it’s right to say Australian gas should be available for Australian companies, for Australian consumers. I’ve said exactly the same thing very consistently and said that in the future gas strategy as well as everywhere else. And, in fact, we’ve done that 644 petajoules doesn’t mean a lot to many people, but it’s enough to power the State of Queensland industrially in its energy for two years. So, to give people some kind of idea, we’ve already split the international market price from the domestic price by the price cap we put in soon after coming into government. We reformed the security mechanism I mentioned, we reformed the heads of agreement. I now meet with those three exporters four times a year to…
DEAN SMITH
But we still don’t have a decision on the Northwest Shelf.
MADELEINE KING
…to make sure they have supply commitments to this government, to the people via the government. We have enormous fines on those three exporters. So, under the code of conduct, they are obliged to not just offer but supply gas as they have promised, or they’ll be subject to a minimum $50 million fine. So, this is what is in place now and, and it is providing gas…
GARY ADSHEAD
It’s AEMO saying things like there could be a gas shortfall. I mean, when they start predicting that.
MADELEINE KING
There’s a lot of reports about gas and I think it confuses the system and, you know, people shouldn’t be concerned if it’s hard to grasp because it is hard to grasp. And there’s a lot of reports on supply and demand in gas. But also, this is, you know, WA we like to think of ourselves of a different country sometimes and when it comes to gas we kind of should and, and yeah…
DEAN SMITH
That is true. That is a true point.
MADELEINE KING
Well the reason is, I mean obviously the distance, but 60% of exports of LNG go from WA. And they don’t connect to the East Coast, and they can’t, there’s no, well I mean unless this billion dollar fund of Peter Dutton wants to build a pipe across the desert, but…
GARY ADSHEAD
Or better infrastructure on the East to send ships around there to offload it.
MADELEINE KING
Well, that is exactly what’s happening now. There’s private investment into the import terminal. But, as I have always said, and I’ve said it in the future gas strategy, in public venues, moving gas via carrier is not cheap. It’s not cheap because you’ve got to freeze the gas here, we extract it first, freeze it, put it on a very advanced carrier, send it what, 4,000 kilometres or something around the coast into Victoria, defrost it and then pop it into the pipes. The cheapest gas is the gas you get nearby where you use it. And that’s what needs to happen more and more in this country…
GARY ADSHEAD
Particularly in Victoria.
DEAN SMITH
There’s a key statistic that informs Peter Dutton and the Coalition’s announcement today in regards to access to gas on the East Coast. And that is that 25 to 30% of all gas that is produced on the East Coast is used domestically. Meaning the remainder 70% plus is used for international export. It earns our country a revenue. So that is a virtue, but it also means that that exported gas is at a much higher price because the international environment is more competitive and global conflicts and those sorts of things push up the price of gas. So, today’s announcement about the creation of an East Coast gas reservation policy, very similar to the one that we have here in Western Australia., a $300 million strategic basin plan, fast tracking the Northwest Shelf decision, this is all about introducing a much higher level of domestic gas security.
GARY ADSHEAD
Should have happened years ago.
DEAN SMITH
And hopefully that will…
MADELEINE KING
Well it’s not really a reservation…
DEAN SMITH
…and hopefully that will put downward pressure on gas prices because, under Labor, East Coast families have been paying $1,300 more for their energy. Household gas bills have gone up by 34%. So, in everything that Peter Dutton has announced today, the ambition here is to put real downward pressure on gas prices. So, it would help households but also industry.
GARY ADSHEAD
See, I think that the gas industry and government should have been, this should have just been happening without having to wait for a Federal Election where someone could come along and say, right, I’m going to wave a big stick at you unless you do the right thing. It just should have been happening. It just seems ridiculous situation that we’ve got on that side of the country. Well, in the situation that they’re in, I mean they are paying a lot more for their electricity
MADELEINE KING
And some of that is to do with the depletion of reservoirs. I mean, Victoria and New South Wales have, and their whole industry have developed over many decades gas as a byproduct of oil production in Bass Strait. So, they were getting really cheap gas to fire this industry and that is just running out of a fossil fuel. But it does run out. And…
DEAN SMITH
We would add to that by saying that the, the reluctance of governments like the Victorian Government to allow for gas extraction across Victoria means that there is less gas supply, which means that there are higher gas prices. And I think nothing demonstrates the failure of gas policy issues over the last three years more that the Victorians are thinking about establishing LNG terminal in Victoria to import gas. That is just crazy.
MADELEINE KING
And, that import may come from WA because they think of it like a virtual pipeline. My point is, and I think we agree on this Dean, is it doesn’t make it cheap gas. No. It does not. It will still be expensive because it has to go on a ship and you got to pay for the transport cost like we do for everything.
DEAN SMITH
Would you agree that we have abundant gas reserves in Australia?
MADELEINE KING
Well, it’s different around the country, but there certainly is a lot of gas reserves, but some of it’s less…
DEAN SMITH
Accessible.
MADELEINE KING
Less accessible, less ability to extract it. But I think exploration is important and exploration is ongoing and there has been quite a lot of investment actually in Victoria. Amplitude Energy, for instance, Beach Energy. And here I went to Strike Energy not that long ago where from Discovery two production was a two-year process. Really remarkable and very quick and because WA’s vision of the pipelines, we’ve had the Dampier to Bunbury pipeline, a lot of these gas supplies just basically plug into the network.
GARY ADSHEAD
Now Darwin Port, gee, there’s been some one-upmanship going on there because clearly Peter Dutton was going to talk about bringing Darwin Port back into Australian hands away from Chinese owners at the moment. And Anthony Albanese, the Prime Minister, jumped on a phone line to a radio station to say “oh yeah we’re going to do that, we’ve been trying to do that, we’re going to do it.”
DEAN SMITH
He’s been the Prime Minister for three years! I’m just wondering, Gary, if the phone rings, are you going to pick it up and is it going to be Anthony Albanese?
GARY ADSHEAD
Ah, of course, happens all the time.
DEAN SMITH
Is it going to be Anthony Albanese trying to get the jump on Peter Dutton because Peter Dutton’s going to be here on Friday and Anthony Albanese is going to be here on Sunday.
GARY ADSHEAD
I wonder if Peter Dutton will be in this studio.
DEAN SMITH
So the Prime Minister said this was a political decision. What does he mean by that?
GARY ADSHEAD
I don’t know, but can you get Peter Dutton? Can you see if Peter Dutton wants to talk to ABC Drive, I’m happy to chat to him.
MADELEINE KING
Why did Peter Dutton, as the Defence Minister agree to sell the Port to Darwin?
GARY ADSHEAD
Did he?
DEAN SMITH
No…
GARY ADSHEAD
Well, no, well come on. They were, you were in Government at the time. That’s a fact.
DEAN SMITH
A couple of things. Context is very different. It was an absolutely different…
MADELEINE KING
What he means to say is what Peter Dutton means to say…
DEAN SMITH
Well what Tony Abbott did at the time in 2015, Tony Abbott at the time was able to get great trading outcomes with China. President Xi was relatively new in his role as the Chinese leader. The Port of Darwin was a commercial asset and the whole country was looking at the Port of Darwin issues through a commercial lens. The world has absolutely changed. We know that from bitter experience. Chinese Fleet, Madeleine, luxury tour around the coast of Australia, including Rockingham. So, Peter Dutton has been very quick to say that ownership will come back into clear Australian control.
GARY ADSHEAD
Within six months. So, when’s the Labor Government going to bring it back into control, Madeleine?
MADELEINE KING
Well, we’ve been saying consistently for 10 years that it should never have left Australian ownership.
DEAN SMITH
So, what have you done for 10 years?
MADELEINE KING
You were in government for 10 years.
GARY ADSHEAD
Let’s just say for the last three. So, what have you done for three?
MADELEINE KING
We have been working on it. There’s been a review into the ownership, and I believe it’s important to do, this kind of acquisition is controversial, and we don’t want to…
DEAN SMITH
No, it’s not anymore.
MADELEINE KING
Well…
DEAN SMITH
The Prime Minister jumped on the phone, and…
MADELEINE KING
The principle, the activity of it, the way you do it is important because…
DEAN SMITH
What Peter Dutton has said is that he’s going to do it within the first six months, and that’s been reinforced by James Paterson. What is Anthony Albanese’s timeframe?
MADELEINE KING
Well, I don’t, I don’t think he will be able to do it in six months, firstly, because he won’t be elected Prime Minister. But also, if he was, I don’t think he could…
DEAN SMITH
What is your timeframe?
MADELEINE KING
We do need to do things carefully. All we know is we are determined to make sure it happens. And all Australians, and indeed of course Territorians can rest assured that it will, we prefer to have a private buyer. It’s not, we don’t want…
DEAN SMITH
Yeah, that’s agreed.
MADELEINE KING
I mean, unlike nuclear power, we don’t want to nationalise the means of production, Dean.
DEAN SMITH
But we’re looking for Australian control. Australian influence.
MADELEINE KING
Well, and that’s why we had the review to see how we can get out of that lease and how you can do it an orderly fashion.
DEAN SMITH
I’m getting a sense, Gary, that there’s no haste on the Government’s part. There’s no sense of urgency on the Government’s part.
GARY ADSHEAD
There was a sense of urgency the other night.
DEAN SMITH
Calling the ABC to urgently make this announcement on the Port of Darwin looks desperate. We don’t disagree with the decision, but I think…
GARY ADSHEAD
I’ll tell you what, he can call ABC anytime.
MADELEINE KING
What really looks desperate is the multitude of backflips that we’ve seen from Peter Dutton. Now that’s what looks desperate.
GARY ADSHEAD
Now listen, I’ve got two minutes, I just wanted to get your reaction, Madeleine, because I know you’ve been involved in the process as well. This is regarding Indonesia and the nickel mines, and what we saw on the 730 Report. But also, it’s not just that Report. There’s been plenty of evidence that it’s ugly nickel mining in Indonesia for electric vehicle batteries that we are all supposed to be seduced by and taking because they’re clean and green are coming from sources which look like they’re absolutely filthy and disgusting. What do you make of it?
MADELEINE KING
Well, I’ve said this publicly before. The nickel refining practices in Indonesia are deadly and they’re dangerous. A couple of Christmases ago, 23 Indonesian workers on Christmas Eve died in an explosion in one of their refineries. And it is terrible labour standards that their workers have to go through. The environmental standards are appalling, and we’ve seen a lot of destruction. But Indonesia banned the export of nickel ore, which drove billions of dollars of Chinese investment into it with the sole purpose of destroying nickel production elsewhere. And that is why the production tax credits, the critical minerals facility, all these things are so important to the Australian economy to build critical minerals. So, we can’t compete with these practices by price and labour, we can’t compete against in the same areas, against an authoritarian regime that will throw in millions of dollars in unlimited fashion to literally destroy the supply chain.
GARY ADSHEAD
But if the supply chains are so ugly in terms of what we’ve seen, doesn’t the Australian Government have a responsibility to stand up to that by way of literally saying to car manufacturers like, BYD, you can’t do this and sell your cars to us?
MADELEINE KING
Well, on the mineral side of things and the processing, we obviously have high standards and the last couple of years I’ve been working with our Embassies around the world to try and see how you have a different pricing system as a way to, to signal this that some things should cost more. But, ultimately, consumers don’t always want to pay more. But, I think it is good that people understand more of what the content is in our green technology. And a lot of that is from mining, if not basically all of it. And that can be all sorts of commodities. It you need gas to make gas turbines, you need coal to make the steel.
DEAN SMITH
I’d add by saying consumer purchasing decisions are very powerful. And my view’s always been that as countries get wealthier, as people have more access to buy a different range of goods, things like how a particular car, in this case, is manufactured. What are the workers’ conditions in foreign countries that might lead to a cheap product. I think consumers are interested in those things. I think they become very aware of them. It’s interesting, BYD in the last few weeks, I’ve driven around the streets and a passenger, I can’t remember who, but would often say, oh, BYD, do you know XYZ about them? So I think there’s a high level of awareness on the street.
GARY ADSHEAD
Stop me looking. I took a deep dive the other night. Hey guys, we’ve got to go. I do appreciate you coming in. Good luck in the rest of the campaign trail. Hopefully we’ll speak to you of course next week. Thanks for coming on in.
DEAN SMITH
Thanks, Gary.
ENDS