SENATOR DEAN SMITH
SHADOW ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR COMPETITION, CHARITIES AND TREASURY
LIBERAL SENATOR FOR WESTERN AUSTRALIA
TRANSCRIPT – INTERVIEW WITH GARY ADSHEAD
TOPICS: Northwest Shelf, Dual Citizenship deportations, Federal Budget
E&OE
GARY ADSHEAD:
Speaking of politics, let’s get into the campaign, our segment here where we have our guest, Madeleine King, the Minister for Resources, and of course North Australia, which is important. You’ll find out why in a second. And Dean Smith, the WA Liberal Senator. They both join us. Thanks very much, folks, for coming. Well, Madeleine’s on the line. Dean, you are right in front of me.
DEAN SMITH:
G’day Gary. Hello Madeleine. I’m starting to take it personally, Madeleine, that we’re not in the studio together.
GARY ADSHEAD:
You’ll have very serious affairs of state won’t you, Madeleine, to be dealing with at the moment?
MADELEINE KING:
Well, I’m actually a fair way away from your studio at the moment, but still in in Perth. Down in the south, where it’s the best as you know.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Alright, okay. Hey, let’s just get started if we can with this idea that Peter Dutton has floated, which is that – everyone’s waiting on Northwest Shelf gas, the extension of this project to go beyond 2030 and up to 2050. He says he’ll fast track it if he wins the election, and this is some of what he had to say:
(RECORDING) PETER DUTTON:
And I think West Australians are smart enough to realise that they’re being duped by a Prime Minister who is no Mark McGowan, no Roger Cook and frankly he’s a Prime Minister that is against mining and is against agriculture and is against development. And our announcement today to deal with the Northwest Shelf gas extension decision within 30 days should send a very clear message that our Government would be a very different, provide a very different future for Western Australians than what a Labor-Greens Government would do. I’m seeking a mandate from the Australian people and, in particular, from the people of Western Australia to make sure that we can keep mining going.
GARY ADSHEAD:
He’s a bit of a “drill, baby, drill” type of guy, isn’t he, Peter Dutton? Dean Smith?
DEAN SMITH:
Gary, you know, drill baby drill has been pretty essential to the prosperity of this state. And when we think about the Northwest Shelf project in particular, it’s a very significant revenue earner for Commonwealth taxes. Very important earner for West Australian revenue. I think what Peter is saying is that the Northwest Shelf project, and gas in particular, has an important role to play here in Western Australia. But in terms of the national energy transition, it’s absolutely critical to global energy security interests. And what Peter is doing is drawing people’s attention to the fact that the regulatory processes don’t work fast enough to give investors like Woodside and others enough confidence to be able to make significant investment decisions. And Peter today said a couple of things. He said within 30 days there will be a decision in regards to the Northwest Shelf. And he’s made it clear to people what his personal opinion is about that – he’s for the project. Secondly, he also said that he would apply a broader national interest test to take into account economic and broader social issues. And he also said, which hasn’t been mentioned, that he would effectively put a statute of limitations over appeals to projects. So, this would allow interested parties, environmental groups, up to 12 months to make the appeals. But beyond that project investment would be safe and secure.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Okay…
DEAN SMITH:
So, this is a very pro-West Australian decision.
GARY ADSHEAD:
This is obviously right in Madeleine’s ballpark. Madeleine, is it wrong for Peter Dutton to say there might be a process in place, the environmental process in this instance, and we’ll go over the top of that and short-circuit it so that there’s a decision quicker?
MADELEINE KING:
Well, I really don’t know, Gary, what Peter Dutton’s going to do about the six years it’s been in the State Government processes. That is not something he has much influence over. So, putting that aside, which is where we’re at, at the moment, after six years, it’s now come up to the Federal Government to make the decision. But, what we’ve seen today is, it’s actually a reckless announcement because it does pre-empt the judgment on this decision. It pre-empts Governmental decision-making. And what that does is make any decision that he makes or his Government might make if he is elected. And I don’t think you will be able to do that, it prejudices all of that and just opens it up for more challenges. So, it demonstrates how reckless the Coalition have been before in decision-making. And I’ve mentioned this in the media before, I’ve had to go through a number of court cases cleaning up the mess around apprehended bias type decisions because Ministers and the Coalition Government were shooting their mouth off about decisions, which then just open the door to a caravan of litigation that has taken a couple of years to fix up. So, Peter Dutton is just doing the exact same thing as the Coalition did before, which brings enormous doubt into the decision-making
DEAN SMITH:
But Gary, let’s wind this back a bit because we had this conversation on your show a few weeks ago. And let’s just remind listeners what happened. Tanya Plibersek recently deferred the decision on the Northwest Shelf project to post the 31st of March. She did that to get over and past the WA State Election. She did that expecting, and we probably will be, in an election period. So, the caretaker conventions are then invoked, which means a decision can’t be taken. So, this decision is being put on the backburner.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Well, it’s a key point, isn’t it Madeleine? I’m not trying to overblow this, but you know that, for example, Seven West Media are taking an absolute hard line on the delays that are going on in and around Northwest Shelf. I asked Penny Wong about this yesterday at a breakfast, you know, can you afford not to have this sorted out before that election?
MADELEINE KING:
Well, actually, the decision has to be made by the 31st of March. So that’s not quite right and…
DEAN SMITH:
No, no, Madeleine, if we are in the caretaker period, the Minister can’t make that decision. If you are telling me I’m wrong, then that is a valuable piece of advice. But I think I’m absolutely right on that.
GARY ADSHEAD:
But you say at this stage, Madeleine, a decision would be made by the 31st of March.
MADELEINE KING:
That’s right. And there are ways to make decisions in caretaker mode, Dean, and I think you’re well aware of that. And we can maybe flesh that out a bit later. But the thing is, this idea that somehow Ministers don’t take the national interest into account is another absurd proposition that Peter Dutton’s putting out there. Of course, I mean, I do, when I make decisions, get briefs from our departments. Tanya will get the same thing. Minister Plibersek, pardon me. So, she will have to receive advice from the department as well. That that is what departments are there to do, to assess all the information and provide advice and then Ministers make the decision. And that is where the ideas of national interest, national security, whatever you like, depending on the decision, that’s when they come into play. And that’s the Minister’s job and that’s what Minister Plibersek will be doing.
DEAN SMITH:
If I heard Madeleine correctly, Gary, she said that a decision would be made by the 31st of March. I think up and down the Terrace, listeners ears would’ve pricked up. And that’s going to be very interesting to see whether or not the decision, we would hope an affirmative decision, on the Northwest Shelf project is made on or by the 31st of March.
GARY ADSHEAD:
That’s been the promise, I know, so far. But, you know, everything can change. Can I just say this to both of you, though, and I’ll get your reaction. We talk about projects that started, you know, 30 years ago. In those 30 years a lot’s changed. We do have a situation with climate and changing climate and so, surely, therefore, regardless of – and yes, I understand it, the economy, the money, the jobs – I get all that. But surely because of the issues around climate change, things like Northwest Gas Shelf projects have to be scrutinised even harder.
DEAN SMITH:
I understand the point you’re making about climate, but I would extend that to say that we are much more aware now of how important gas is in the energy transition discussion that this country has. But more important how our global partners, the Japanese, for example, how important energy security is for them. And we know you can’t have a renewable energy solution mix if there is no gas. I’m sure Madeleine would agree with me. Gas has a very important role to play and we know that in our state, we’re expecting to see gas shortages, somehow, in this gas-rich state. In 2030 we’re starting to see gas shortages. So, the discussion around the importance of gas and therefore how we extract it, where it’s extracted from, i.e. the Northwest Shelf project is a really powerful demonstration. You’re absolutely right of how the debate has changed. And in this instance how important gas and gas projects, and extensions of projects like the $30 billion extension at Northwest Shelf, have become.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Madeleine. You know, it’s right, isn’t it? That you would like to think that Federal Governments are putting the environment almost ahead in some way of some of these big projects. Madeleine, wouldn’t we like to think that?
MADELEINE KING:
Well, I think we need to know that Governments consider all things, whether it be the environment, economic benefit, the need for energy security for both us and our regional partners. But you’re right to point out the timelines around these things and the Northwest Shelf has been a remarkably important facility for Karratha and Dampier, but also the whole of the state and therefore the whole of the nation. And it isn’t an older facility, it’s been upgraded from time to time. This extension is an important part of the story. And the extension itself comes to being because of the Browse project. And we know that the Browse gas field has been known about for, if it’s not 50 years, it’s 40 years. And I might, someone might correct me, but that’s a gas field that has on again, off again with the proponents for that. And the only reason that’s not come up before is because gas companies make commercial decisions. There’s commercial decisions in the six-year delay as well through the State Government processes. So, to say that somehow this whole story of the Northwest Shelf extension dating back six years somehow rests with Government bits, State or Federal processes is simply not true.
GARY ADSHEAD:
I wanted to throw one in here as well for both of you. Because if I talk just raw politics here, you know, let’s face it, what happened in Fremantle to a degree with the way that Simone McGurk came close to losing the seat against an independent who campaigned heavily on climate issues and backed by Climate 200. I mean, you’ve got to think about that. Dean Smith, don’t you? That Kate Chaney probably took from that Fremantle result a lot of benefits for her, because her message in terms of being a Teal independent in Curtin, a former Liberal seat, is resonating still. She’ll think “okay, that message still needs to be heard”.
DEAN SMITH:
This is exactly the point. The Coalition argues that the delay in making a decision around the Northwest Shelf is driven by politics. First point. Second point for Kate Chaney, if she’s listening, this is an opportunity to demonstrate that she’s pro-Western Australia. She understands how important resource development is to the prosperity of this state now, but into the future, or whether she’s anti-Western Australian.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Oh, that’s, a lot of people should be on the phone in a minute. But I mean, a lot of her constituents will agree that, that you are not taking climate seriously enough by saying we’ll do something in 30 days. It might need to take a bit longer than that from an environmental point of view.
DEAN SMITH:
But more than that, Gary, Anthony Albanese and Tanya are torn. They don’t know whether they should be responding to the political interest dictated to them by inner city Labor seats, or whether they should be paying closer attention to those seats in a state like Western Australia that are very dependent on resource industry jobs. But the Northwest, I think many people would be surprised to hear how prominent this whole Northwest Shelf debate has become. Because I think for many people they would’ve thought it was absolutely natural and common sense and very practical for the prosperity of this state. And what Peter Dutton has been saying to people is that there’s a catalogue of issues now that demonstrate that Anthony Albanese is not for Western Australia. His opposition to live sheep exports, Nature Positive laws, increased unionisation of mine sites across the Pilbara. Anthony Albanese is not in WA’s interests.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Kate Chaney actually answered that question today.
(RECORDING) KATE CHANEY:
Well, I think that it would be fine for the project to go ahead if a few conditions are met, and these projects have huge long-term consequences. So, if we’re fully costing climate and recognising the real costs, social and environmental costs of the emissions from this massive project. And if we’re addressing the other issues like environmental and Aboriginal heritage issues, and if the numbers still stack up when we are fully costing the climate impact, then it should go ahead.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Sorry, that was February that one. Yeah, so she says it should go ahead. Well, so if you, if you’re going to have a crack, I mean you…
DEAN SMITH:
But her position is heavily caveated. Heavily caveated. I think the core of the issue here is delay. It is delay and delay costs investors significant amount of money, delay in project development and project execution means that projects get pushed out. They become more expensive and the dividend or the returns for a state like Western Australia become less and less certain.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Now, I know I dragged that out a bit, but I was going to ask you both about the Peter Dutton idea for a referendum. This is a bit of what Peter Dutton’s been saying about the need for referendum around dual citizenship.
(RECORDING) PETER DUTTON:
I want a mandate from the Australian people to be able to implement the laws which are necessary to keep us safe. The Prime Minister dismisses it as a thought bubble. So, we we’re suggesting here that if we can tighten the laws, we do that as a last resort. If there’s a change to the constitution required, we can have that discussion.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Dual citizenship. Of course, people who may have committed very serious, heinous crimes like terrorism or other very violent crimes, they lose one part of their citizenship. And that’s the Australian one, and they would be deported back to where the other passport might take them. Do you back that referendum though, Dean Smith?
DEAN SMITH:
Well, Peter’s saying a couple of things in his comments today. First is…
MADELEINE KING:
I like how you’re getting to interpret what Peter’s saying here, Dean, at every turn.
DEAN SMITH:
Because, Madeleine, I’m totally expecting you to misinterpret what Peter’s been saying. Everyone knows that Peter Dutton gives a high priority to community safety. That is demonstrated because of his life as a Policeman before politics. And I think he has demonstrated it very well in the various Ministerial roles he’s played. The second point is that Peter’s made it very clear that what we are talking about here is exploring legislative change and legislative options, but keeping the option of constitutional reform open if that becomes necessary.
GARY ADSHEAD:
So, it would need a referendum if necessary.
DEAN SMITH:
If necessary. We are dealing with a constitutional restriction. But more than that, he’s inviting the country to have a conversation. He’s open to different points of views. He said it himself. He’s seeking a mandate if that is what is required. So, I know there’s been a lot of excitement about this over the course of the last day or so. I think it makes sense that someone like Peter Dutton would be arguing, putting every option on the table to say to people he’s committed to making sure that this problem is fixed if he’s the Prime Minister of Australia.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Someone just said get Dutton on the ABC. We have asked if Peter Dutton, while he’s here, has got time to spend being interviewed by us and perhaps taking some talk back at this stage. We’ve had a no, Dean Smith. Madeleine King, do you think the public would go for a referendum on something like dual citizenship.
MADELEINE KING:
Well, if I could just reflect on a few things that have been said. Peter Dutton has already made a decision on the Northwest Shelf without any reference whatsoever to departmental advice or any other advice. So, okay. We know where he stands. He stands for jeopardising good government and good governmental decision making. And now he’s made this decision to have a referendum on deporting citizens without even talking to his party room. So, we know where he stands there. He just makes unilateral reckless decisions on behalf of many people that don’t get to have their say. And importantly for Dean and his colleagues, it’s his party room. So, it’s really generous of Dean to interpret Peter Dutton’s words, but they don’t need interpretation. We can hear them. The people of Perth listening now on the radio can hear them. He, he wants to have this referendum to be able to deport citizens. I went to a citizenship ceremony just last night. And these people, I mean just asking citizens to vote on the risk of having themselves deported is a thin end of the wedge, it’s an absurd proposition. It’s nice for you to try and clarify his words. What would be really nice to clarify is what the Liberal Party’s position is. Because we’ve seen it change three or four times today over varying reports. So, good luck explaining that.
GARY ADSHEAD:
But if they’re convicted of, of terrorism or the like then, quite frankly, Madeleine, I wouldn’t care less whether they object to being deported, you might not care. And…
DEAN SMITH:
A bit of history here. I thank you, Madeleine, for that segue. Thank you for the segue…
MADELEINE KING:
The rule of law is important, we should respect…
GARY ADSHEAD:
It is, but if someone’s been convicted and so on, that’s all I’m saying. If someone’s convicted of an act of terrorism, I might not be sort of bleeding heart for them. But staying in the country.
DEAN SMITH:
It’s worth remembering that once upon a time Ministers could make these decisions, then in 2022 the High Court made a decision that judges could only make these decisions. Hence, that is why there’s a constitutional perspective to this. And the only way to deal with a constitutional matter is by referendum So, once you peel away the excitement, it starts to make much more sense.
MADELEINE KING:
I guess everyone can understand what Liberal Party policy is, that you’re going to have a referendum on dual citizens being deported.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Now Madeleine…
MADELEINE KING:
It’s good to know, isn’t it? I’m glad, Dean, you’ve clarified that for everybody.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Now Minister, there’s something even more important than anything we’ve discussed so far. And I need to ask you a question, Minister. When you were here for our election night coverage, do you think you may have left behind a sort of a keep cup, a pink Yeti cup? Did you have one?
MADELEINE KING:
Oh, I do have one.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Is it a keep cup? Is that what you’d describe it as? I’m looking at the producers…
MADELEINE KING:
Guess so. Yetis are pretty much, I know you shouldn’t mention brand names on the ABC, but they are superior.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Alright, well I, all I know is that we have one here. It’s, it looks like what you’d call a keep cup. It’s a yes, it’s a Yeti product. I’m going to say it again.
DEAN SMITH:
It’s definitely not mine, Gary.
GARY ADSHEAD:
It’s not yours Dean. It’s not yours. It’s not Zach Kirkup’s, who was here. We don’t think it’s his. So, we we’re going to say that it’s yours, the rather bright pink. We will make sure it’s washed.
MADELEINE KING:
That’s just one way of getting me back up there.
GARY ADSHEAD:
We’ll make sure it’s washed, and it’ll be here for you. Next time you come back up to, to go head-to-head with Dean Smith.
DEAN SMITH:
A lure, that’s great. I like your thinking, Gary.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Thank you very much both of you for coming on.
MADELEINE KING:
See you next week in Canberra, Dean.
DEAN SMITH:
I might even see you on the plane on Sunday.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Alright. Oh, we’ve got a budget coming up, haven’t we?
MADELEINE KING:
That’s right.
GARY ADSHEAD:
The deficit…
DEAN SMITH:
The budget Albanese did everything he could to avoid.
GARY ADSHEAD:
The cyclone stuffed it all up. Didn’t it?
MADELEINE KING:
Well, I was ready for it. I’ve been working on it, Dean, for some time.
GARY ADSHEAD:
Alright you two. Thanks very much for that. Appreciate it.
MADELEINE KING:
Pleasure. Thanks.
DEAN SMITH:
Thank you, Gary.
ENDS